This has been a question that has been receiving more and more attention these days and I've been looking at different posts by both sides and I wanted to know what the Christians and Mormons here thought about it. (If you are Atheist then please refrain from posting unless your giving an honest opinion that is relevant to the topic instead of trying to disprove either faith.) I personally am of the opinion that Mormons are not Christians due to the difference in the origins of the world according to Mormons:



This is taken from http://cnview.com/on_line_resources/are_mo...s_christian.htm which is a Christian website and of course has bias in it. If a Mormon feels this is incorrect then I will gladly listen to your argument. Now before I read that article I read a fairly convincing article from a Mormon website: http://www.fairlds.org/Anti-Mormons/Can_Mo...Christians.html

Now my problem with this article is the focus on the syntax of the article. Of course an article from the CRI should contain citations and such, but the article was not intended for the intense scrutiny that FAIR gave to it. The author of the Mormon article even admitted:



Thoughts?

I think they both started from the same myth and eventually evolved into something different.

Well actually, they refer to themselves as "The Church of Jesus Christ of Later Day Saints". Mormon was a tag hung on them by the many people who were hostile to the religion.

You can make a strong argument either way. But I would lean towards the "not really christian" end of things.

For example, Jesus is recognized as an important prophet in the Islamic religion and their end times script has him returning to earth as a muslim (love to see the christian fundamentalist's faces if that happened!). But you can hardly call Islam a "Christian" religion. Likewise, Christ doesn't really seem as important in CoLDS as Joseph Smith does, from what I know about the history and practices of the religion.

There was a fascinating book I read many years ago called "Kingdom of the Cults. It alternated between a dry, scholarly treaties on the history and background of what they referred to as "Cults" in America and a foaming at the mouth fundamentalist christian take on why they didn't consider groups like the Unification Church or the CoLDS to be "real" christians. It did make a strong argument though, that much of what the CoLDS believes, is incompatible with traditional Christianity.

Of course, Christianity started off as basically a jewish sect (which has always given me a certain WTF with regards to the long history of christian anti-semetisim) and there really isn't anything much stranger in the CoLDS history and belief, than has been present in past christian sects and off shoots and it's not like there's much if any support in the bible for most of the structure of the catholic church and their practices.

Besides South Park said it was the Mormons who had it right...

I think in much of the dichotomy stems from the fact that the history of the CoLDS is from a relatively recent and well documented time. It hasn't had the distance of millenia and lack of record keeping that helps to maintain the plausibility of biblical events.

First of all 'latter' is spelled with two 't's. Secondly; they changed their name to that after 1838. They were originally known as the "Church of Christ". Does that sound christian to anyone?

Mormons believe that the Christian religion strayed away from the true Gospel after the apostles died. They are historically correct.

Also consider this; on page 513 of the Mormon Doctrine it states "Mormonism is Christianity; Christianity is Mormonism; they are one and the same, they are not to be distinguished from each other in the minutest detail...Mormons are true Christians."

I dont think that question have an answer. Or there is no perceived correct answer in the near future. And if this topic is receiving more and more attention, some alarm bell should call very quickly. Why? I try to explain. To put this in another perspective. Why are islam or christianity not regarded as a jewish religion or sect? And to protestants and catholics consider each other as christians. A few hundred years ago they didnt, and blood had to be spilled to sort this out. And shia and sunni are in midst of it. And so on...

The answer is... just let it be...

Uh... actually, you are sorely mistaken. If the so called "Total Apostasy" had occurred right after the last apostle died, then Jesus would be considered a liar since he clearly said in the scriptures, "And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it." (Matthew 16:18 - KJV "The officially recognized translation of the LDS Church"). So like what the heck? Would the son of God actually lie to his followers and to us? That is bad knowledge you have. Because of this, the Mormons are clearly not Christian. End of story.


Guru

P.S. Also notice that the Mormons think everything since the Total Apostasy is corrupt, yet they use the King James version of the bible... created a few hundred years BEFORE Joseph Smith "reformed" everything.

I find it ironic that while Mormons are asking to be considered to be Christians, their very founder said this:

""all wrong ... all their creeds were an admonition in his sight, and that those professors (Christians) were all corrupt"

I just wonder why there wasn't anything in the Bible about Joseph Smith... I mean Christ was prophesied extensively throughout the Old Testament, why wouldn't there be one word about how the whole faith would be totally remade. I guess you could argue the same for the Reformation....

At least Joseph Smith was a real person. Jesus was a collection from stories retold hundreds and even thousands of years earlier.

The "Jesus" figure appears in the story of Mithras, which predates the story of Jesus by 600 years, and the Egyptian sun god Horus, had pre-dated the Jesus character by thousands of years. So as mentioned, at least Joseph Smith was a real person

Yes. We are Christians. We believe that the Atonement of Jesus Christ provides a way for us to live with God.

I'm sorry, but are you really claiming that the story of Mithras is the same as of Jesus? For one I explicitly said in the topic NOT to post about the validity of either religion. Secondly, Mithras was not born of a virgin like some claim, but out of solid rock. The other similarity that I'm assuming your claiming with the story of Mithras is how shepherds attended his birth. However, if you examine the traditions of Mithraites, you see that Mithras was created BEFORE humanity. Thus, the only similarity between the two is their birthdate. (Source: http://christopherbutler.wordpress.com/200...mithras-redux/)

ABSOLUTELY! As is the story of Buddha and Horus. Study your history and you will see that is was common place back then to take a popular story, change one or two elements - and then create a new story. Clearly this is where the story of Jesus came from. The Orthodox Christian hierarchy is practically identical to the Mithraic version. Virtually all of the elements of the Orthodox Christian rituals (wafer, doxology, water baptism and alter) were adopted from the Mithra and earlier pagan religions. Let's see what they took from other stories to create the story of Jesus:


• Next to the god Ormuzd, Mithra held the highest rank among the gods of ancient Persia. Next to God, Jesus holds the next highest rank.
• Mithra was born on December 25th as an offspring of the Sun.
• Both had virgin births.
• He was represented as a beautiful youth and a mediator.
• He was considered a great traveling teacher.
• He had twelve companions (Jesus had twelve disciples).
• Mithra was called "the good shepherd,” "the way, the truth and the light,” “redeemer,” “savior,” “Messiah."
• He was identified with both the lion and the lamb.
• Could also redeem the souls of the dead into heaven.
• Ceremonies included a sort of baptism to remove sins, anointing, and a sacred meal of bread and water, while a consecrated wine, believed to possess wonderful power.
• The mysteries of Mithras, which fell in the spring equinox, were famous even among the many Roman festivals, much like Easter is today among christians.
• Purified themselves by baptism.
• Their conceptions of the world and of the destiny of man were very similar.
• They both believed in the existence of a Heaven inhabited by beatified ones, situated in the upper regions, and of a Hell, peopled by demons, situated in the bowels of the earth.
• They both placed a flood at the beginning of history.
• Both performed the same exact miracles.
• They both believed in the immortality of the soul, in a last judgment, and in a resurrection of the dead.
• They both had disciples which formed an organized church, with a developed hierarchy.
• They both possessed the ideas of Mediation, Atonement, and a Savior, who is human and yet divine, and not only the idea, but a doctrine of the future life.
• They both had a Eucharist or "Lord's Supper."
• They were both buried in a tomb and after three days they both rose again. Their resurrection was (is) celebrated every year.
• They both had the sacred day of Sunday, "the Lord's Day."
• "I am a star which goes with thee and shines out of the depths." - Mithraic saying" - I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright morning star." - Jesus, (Rev. 22:16)
• Both were believed to be mankind's savior.
• Both were known as the Light of the world.


Now let's look at Buddha (who also preceded the story of Jesus) to see eerie similarities between Buddha and then afterward *cough* Jesus...

• Both Buddha and Jesus were baptized in the presence of the "spirit" of G--d. (De Bunsen, p. 45; Matthew 3:16.)
  
• Both went to their temples at the age of twelve, where they are said to have astonished all with their wisdom. (Ibid., p. 37; Luke 2:41--48.)
  
• Both supposedly fasted in solitude for a long time: Buddha for forty--seven days and Jesus for forty. (Arthur Lillie, Buddha and Early Buddhism (London, 1881), p. 100, Matthew 4:2.)
  
• At the conclusion of their fasts, they both wandered to a fig tree. (Hans Joachim Schoeps, An Intelligent Person's Guide to the Religions of Mankind (London, 1967), p. 167; Matthew 21:18--19.)
  
• Both were about the same age when they began their public ministry:
  "When he [Buddha] went again to the garden he saw a monk who was calm, tranquil, self--possessed, serene, and dignified. The prince, determined to become such a monk, was led to make the great renunciation. At the time he was twenty--nine years of age...". (Encyclopedia Americana (New York: Rand McNally and Co., 1963), vol. 4, p. 672.)
  "Jesus, when he began his ministry, was about thirty years of age" (Luke 3:23).
  
• Both were tempted by the "devil" at the beginning of their ministry:
  To Buddha, he said: "Go not forth to adopt a religious life but return to your kingdom, and in seven days you shall become emperor of the world, riding over the four continents." (Moncure D. Conway, The Sacred Anthology (London, 1874), p. 173.)
  To Jesus, he said: "All these [kingdoms of the world] I will give you, if you fall down and worship me" (Matthew 4:9).
  
• Buddha answered the "devil": "Get you away from me." (De Bunsen, p.38)
  Jesus responded: "...begone, Satan!" (Matthew 4:10).
  
• Both experienced the "supernatural" after the "devil" left:
  For Buddha: "The skies rained flowers, and delicious odors prevailed [in] the air." (Ibid.)
  For Jesus: "angels came and ministered to him" (Matthew 4:11).
  
• The multitudes required a sign from both in order that they might believe. (Muller, Science, p. 27; Matthew 16:1.)
  
• Both strove to establish a kingdom of heaven on earth. (Beal, p. x; Matthew 4:17.)
  
• Buddha "represented himself as a mere link in a long chain of enlightened teachers." (Muller, Science, p. 140.)
  Jesus said: "Think not that I have come to abolish the law, and the prophets; I have come not to abolish them but to fulfill them" (Matthew 5:17).
  
• According to the Somadeva (a Buddhist holy book), a Buddhist ascetic's eye once offended him, so he plucked it out and cast it away. (Ibid., p. 245)
  Jesus said: "If your right eye causes you to sin, pluck it out, and throw it away;" (Matthew 5:29).
  
• "Buddha taught that the motive of all our actions should be pity or love of our neighbor." (Ibid., p. 249)
  Jesus taught: "...love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you" (Matthew 5:44).
  
• Buddha said: "Hide your good deeds, and confess before the world the sins you have committed." (Ibid., p.28)
  Jesus said: "Beware of practicing your piety before men to be seen by them;" (Matthew 6:1) and "Therefore confess your sins one to another, and pray one for another, that you may be healed..." (James 5:16).
  
• Both are said to have known the thoughts of others:
  "By directing his mind to the thoughts of others, [Buddha] can know the thoughts of all beings." (R. Spence Hardy, The Legends and Theories of the Buddhists Compared with History and Science (London, 1866), p. 181.)
  "But Jesus, knowing their thoughts, said: `Why do you think evil in your hearts?' " (Matthew 9:4).
  
• After "healing" a man born blind, Buddha said: "The disease of this man originates in his sinful actions in former times." (Prof. Max Muller, ed., Sacred Books of the East (Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1879--1910), vol. 21, p. 129f.)
  "As [Jesus] passed by, he saw a man blind from his birth. And his disciples said to him: `Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?' " (John 9:1--2).
  
• Both were itinerant preachers with a close group of trustees within a larger group of disciples. (James Hastings, ed., Encyclopedia of Religion and Ethics (New York: Edinburgh T. & T. Clark, 1918), vol. 6, p. 883; Matthew 26:20.)
  
• Both demanded that their disciples renounce all worldly possessions. (Hardy, Monachism, p. 6; Luke 14:33.)
  "The number of the disciples rapidly increased, and Gautama sent forth his monks on missionary tours hither and thither, bidding them wander everywhere, preaching the doctrine, and teaching men to order their lives with self--restraint, simplicity, and charity." (Hastings, vol. 6, p.883)
  "And [Jesus] called to him the twelve [apostles], and began to send them out two by two.So they went out and preached that men should repent" (Mark 6:7, 12).
  
• Both had a disciple who "walked" on water:
  To convert skeptical villagers, Buddha showed them his disciple walking across a river without sinking. (Lillie, p. 140)
  "He said: `Come.' So Peter got out of the boat and walked on the water and came to Jesus, but when he saw the wind, he was afraid, and beginning to sink he cried out: `Lord, save me!' " (Matthew 14:29--30).
  
• "One day Ananda, the disciple of Buddha, after a long walk in the country, meets with Matangi, a woman of the low caste of the Kandalas, near a well, and asks her for some water. She tells him what she is, and that she must not come near him. But he replies: `My sister, I ask not for your caste or your family, I ask only for a drought of water. She afterwards became a disciple of Buddha." (Muller, Science, p. 243)
  "There came a woman of Samaria to draw water. Jesus said to her: `Give me a drink.' For his disciples had gone away into the city to buy food. The Samaritan woman said to him: `How is it that you, a Jew, ask a drink of me, a woman of Samaria?' For Jews have no dealings with Samaritans" (John 4:7--9).
  
• Each repeated a question three times:
  "The Buddha next addressed the bhikkhus and requested them three times to ask him if they had any doubt or question that they wished clarified, but they all remained silent." (Encyclopedia Britannica (New York: William and Helen Benton, 1974), vol. 2, p. 373.)
  "[Jesus] said to him the third time: `Simon, son of John, do you love me?' Peter was grieved because he said to him the third time: `Do you love me?'" (John 21:17).
  
• Both received similar receptions:
  "The people swept the pathway, the gods strewed flowers on the pathway and branches of the coral tree, the men bore branches of all manner of trees, and the Bodhisattva Sumedha spread his garments in the mire, [and] men and gods shouted: `All hail.' " (Hardy, Legends, p.134)
  "And they brought the colt to Jesus, and threw their garments on it; and he sat on it. And many spread their garments on the road, and others spread leafy branches which they had cut from the fields" (Mark 11:7--8).
  
• Both had an archival:
  "[Buddha's] chief rival was Devadatta, a cousin of the Buddha, who is represented as being jealous of his influence and popularity, and as repeatedly seeking to compass his death." (Hastings, vol. 6, p.883)
  "While [Jesus] was still speaking, Judas came, one of the twelve, and with him a great crowd with swords and clubs, from the chief priests and the elders of the people. Now the betrayer had given them a sign, saying: `The one I shall kiss is the man; seize him!' And he came up to Jesus at once, and said: `Hail, Master!' And he kissed him" (Matthew 26:47--49).
  
• Before his death, Buddha said to his disciple: "Ananda, when I am gone, you must not think there is no Buddha; the discourses I have delivered, and the precepts I have enjoined, must be my successors, or representatives, and be to you as Buddha." (Hardy, Eastern Monachism (London, 1860), p. 230.)
  Before his "ascension," Jesus said to his disciples: "Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and, lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age" (Matthew 28:19--20).
  
• When Buddha died: "The coverings of [his] body unrolled themselves, and the lid of his coffin was opened by supernatural powers." (De Bunsen, p. 49.)
  When Jesus died: "And behold, there was a great earthquake; for an angel of the Lord descended from heaven and came and rolled back the stone, and sat upon it" (Matthew 28:2).
  
• "In the year 217 B.C. Buddhist missionaries were imprisoned for preaching; but an angel came and opened the prison door, and liberated them." (Thomas Thornton, A History of China from the Earliest Records to the Treaty with Great Britain in 1842 (London, 1844), vol. 1, p. 341.)
  "They arrested the apostles and put them in the common prison. But at night an angel of the Lord opened the prison doors and brought them out" (Acts 5:18--19).
  
• Both men's disciples are said to have been miracle workers. (Maria L. Child, The Progress of Religious Ideas Through Successive Ages (New York, 1855)vol. 1, p. 229, Acts 3:6--8.)

Maybe you shouldn't be asking if mormons are christian... maybe you should be asking if christians are Buddhist. LOL


The story of Horus also contributed the following to the story of Jesus:

• Horus was born of the virgin Isis-Meri on December 25th in a manger.
• His birth was being announced by a star in the East and attended by three wise men.
• His earthly father was named "Seb" ("Joseph").
• He was of royal descent.
• At age 12, he was a child teacher in the Temple.
• A aget 30, he was baptized, having disappeared for 18 years.
• Horus was baptized in the river Eridanus or Iarutana (Jordan) by "Anup the Baptizer" ("John the Baptist"), who was decapitated.
• He had 12 disciples, two of whom were his "witnesses" and were named "Anup" and "Aan" (the two "Johns").
• He performed miracles, exorcised demons and raised El-Azarus ("El-Osiris"), from the dead.
• Horus walked on water.
• His personal epithet was "Iusa," the "ever-becoming son" of "Ptah," the "Father." He was thus called "Holy Child."
• He delivered a "Sermon on the Mount" and his followers recounted the "Sayings of Iusa."
• Horus was transfigured on the Mount.
• He was crucified between two thieves.
• He was buried for three days in a tomb, and then resurrected.
• He was also called the "Way, the Truth, the Light," "Messiah," "God's Anointed Son," the "Son of Man," the "Good Shepherd," the "Lamb of God," the "Word made flesh," the "Word of Truth," etc.
• Like Jesus, "Horus was supposed to reign one thousand years."
• Horus fed thousands (5000 to be exact) with just a few loaves of bread.
• Horus was called "the KRST," (pronounced Christ) or "Anointed One."
• He was "the Fisher" and was associated with the Fish ("Ichthys") and the Lamb.


I find it simply astonishing that religions instruct their followers to 'read the bible' - but they never tell their followers to learn the history of the contents of the bible. Weird. Now one or two similarities I can see, but when you can comprise a long, long list as shown above, from more than one other PRECEDING story, that speaks volumes to the open minded person

Looks like someone watched the zeitgeist movie

The movies OK but I've known about this stuff for 20-30 years now. Check out some of Joseph Campbells books (or the PBS series), they document it all in much greater detail

So is your point here that Christians are ignorant while you are not?

I think it could certainly be argued that the majority of Christians are ignorant of the relation their own religious texts/stories have with that of others throughout history. More concerning is that the majority would also choose to stay ignorant of this when presented with an opportunity to learn more about this history and origins of their religion, rejecting any alternate views out of hand.

I completely agree with you Brain, but I was trying to point out Max was pointing out the flaws Christianity in a post where I specifically asked people not to post about the validity of either religion.

My post clearly stayed away from showing how they are valid, in-fact it proved how they are invalid. Funny how that worked out

It depends on what requisites do you call someone a "christian"

If you define a christian as someone who believes that Jesus Christ as a Lord and Savior...then I believe yes

I have a friend who is a Mormon (Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints) and believes in Jesus...

Oh and by Mormon are you saying fundamentalists or members of aforementioned religion?

Actually, that is not all... A Christian is defined as believing in the Trinity or the ideology of three persons in one god (The Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit). The Mormons, sadly do not believe in the Trinity, an essential building block to Christianity.


Guru

Excuse me? An who got to decide this "essential building block of Christianity?" Oh yeah... the trinity worshippers. Now that's an unexpected shock! There have been THOUSANDS of sects from the inception of the Christian movement down to our modern day that haven't embraced such a trinity. In fact, the oldest surviving Christian texts are gnostic in nature and certainly don't embrace this vision on the Trinity. We have two hundred years of Christian writings before it was even ever mentioned! I'm not endorsing Mormon theology but they don't need this narrow definition to call themselves Christian.

EVERY Christian has their own personal view of the Christ built on a cultivated view unique to their denomination.. sure you can find some common threads running through the various belief systems of ALL the myriads of Christian faiths today but you aren't going to find them all universally. The lowest common denominator is this:

Christian (noun): a person who has received Christian Baptism or is a believer in Jesus Christ and his teachings.

You may want to argue what constitutes a Christian baptism, the nature of Jesus, or his teachings... people have been doing that for almost 2000 years now... and surprise surprise... look at all the different Christian demoninations there are!

So Mormons aren't of the modern mainstream Christian bent... so what? Ask any of them, and they're proud of that fact! Nobody cares but those wanting to find something divisive. I mean seriously, people! If you start wacking every faith that doesn't match your version of Christ off the Christianity Tree, what you're left with will be a pole in the ground with one single leaf... you.

What I would really like to ask is why any of you care? Do they really frighten you that badly? It can't be that they offend you... at most you might find some aspects of Mormon dogma to be "ludicrous" but this isn't the age of Inquisition now is it? When it comes to faith, we all live in glass houses. I think this is one rock nobody should be throwing around.

Guys
B4 anything else we should know what it meant to be a christian. any group can freely say that he or she is a christian. some will say im a christian coz my parents are, some guys will say im not muslim so therefore im a christian, i always go to church every sunday, i pray alot i have my own bible with different version, i belong to a baptist church are this a proof that u are. Sadly no...
THIS IS WHAT THE WORLD VIEW IS TRYING TO SAY.....

Christian means having a PERSONAL reltionship with Christ w/c result to a change life.

Mormons are Christians, albeit loose ones. Funny how a lot of you can recognize how silly and clearly delusional Mormon beliefs are, but not others...

Silly and delusional? *laugh* No Mormon thinks that, I am sure... just like no Catholic thinks that of their church... and so on... but ask any Christian about someone else's religion and oh my hell. Don't you think there is enough division in the world? They aren't going to change to suit you and you aren't going to change to suit them. Why don't we call this a draw and move on already.

I think all people who believe that Christ is the son of God and accept him as a saviour is a Christian, only another kind of Christian...

There are Catholic Christians, Protestant Christians...

WHat is the definition of "Christian"?

I agree with you here. We will always think other peoples religions very odd, however I don't agree with you on closing this topic just because you believe this an unwinable fight to the death. It's simply an argument. I don't believe I'm going to change anyone and I don't think the people on the other side of the argument will. If you are going to be that angered by an argument on a forum, you might need to reanalyze yourself.

Ironically history teaches us that most of the worlds division and pain is caused from religion.

When someone is brainwashed it is hard to get them to think with an open mind.


It's the human form of chasing your tail. This thread has no further usefulness.

Angered? Nah... maybe baffled and a little confused. Why would you think I was angry?

Agreed... Mormons are not your version of Christian. Yea! We solved it. *laugh*

Seriously, this is like the Shia and the Sunni asking the question if the other is really muslim. As non-participants, you'd may well say, "Well, yeah! What a dumb question." To answer Are Mormons Christian, I would give the same response.

Have you heard the expression , "If you don't have anything good to say, then don't say anything."

Have you heard the expression "sometimes the truth hurts" 'cuss it appears that when people here speak the truth of the matter about this you seem to get nervous....

Forgive me for not seeing the truth. If only I could have been as enlightened as yourself! I can't believe I did not realize that not a single intelligent open-minded person has ever believed in Christianity.

Honestly, my faith has not been challenged in the least bit by any of your posts on any of the religious topics on this forum. Moreover, you have strengthened it. Now if you don't believe in what I do, that's your "beef" (/laugh @ shoe incident) but it's becoming increasingly frustrating when I specifically ask in a topic for people not to post about the validity of either religion and you cannot simply hold back the desire to show everyone how you "know how it really is." It is sad to see how you are posting about how I am "ignoring the truth" but you cannot even control your own desire for self-aggrandizement and thus are ignoring what I had asked you not to do...

Mormons are Mormons

There are no "Christians". There is no "Christian Church". Instead it is:

Catholic Church
Lutheran Church
Methodist Church
Evangelical Church

etc. etc. Take your pick on which of the one million denominations of "Christianity" you'd like to be a part of...or not.

Christian is merely an all encompassing word for common threads that all of these denominations share, I do not believe however that there is an official christian religion, only different forms of this one THING that we use to describe all forms of christianity. Being Mormon is a form of christianity, just as Catholocism is another FORM of christianity (common threads, some more emphasized than others).

This is why one can still be christian but also bend the bible to say anything that one desires. It literally says all points of view at once even though they contradict and conflict, so that people will literally read it, pick something they like out of it, and then try to tell others what the book is about, oh and at the same time, its "God"'s words, so its "perfect".

So at the end of the day who cares whether Mormons are Christians? I guess....Mormons and other forms of Christians.

If you ask me its a waste of time though, this dialogue doesn't do anything other than cause people to disagree. We should be talking about "The Big Issues" in our world and focus on real, tangible, common sense solutions to our problems. Time to throw this 1700 year old book out the window.

PS:
I don't claim to know "how it is" or "how it works" but I know enough to know that I don't know enough (the world, the afterlife, take your pick). Which is more than I can say for most Christians...

Merry Christmas!!!

Christendom is richly diverse... and that's a very good thing. While I may not share many of their doctrinal beliefs, I have a great love and appreciation for my Mormon friends. To know them, one wouldn't have the need to challenge their professed Christianity. All in all, they are a very generous and kind people working towards their ideal perfection. In this, we can find much in common.

"Oh, mankind, God could have made you one if He had willed, but He did not. He made you the separate nations and tribes so that you could know one another, cooperate with one another, and compete with one another in good works." ~ Qur'an 5:48

True. I have personally met many people that have been "brainwashed". They think that your ideas are wrong, and what they think is right is right and any other point of view is wrong. Religion is a thing people made to explain the unexplainable(oh irony), but it became a sort of brainwashing thing. Want examples? The Medieval Age's Catholic church. No, I'm not an Atheist, but there are people that sincerely, I prefer to not to comment.

Okay the point about Christians' close-mindedness is very valid indeed. However I want to challenge you on a couple points. First, you consider Christians to be close-minded in general and once again I agree with you, but I must ask, are any of you (I'm using the plural form of you. This isn't directed solely at iNoob) guilty of the same crime? I've examined the Atheistic point of view many a time and have drawn the conclusion in favor of Christianity and I'm sure many of you have examined the Christian point of view.

Secondly, this point about brainwashing... I'm not exactly sure what you are going with here. Are you suggesting that Christians do not see evidence supporting both sides of the issue? Should at my next church meeting I go and demonstrate Atheistic evidence attempting to denounce Christianity I really don't understand what you are pointing to. Are you referring to Christian raising of children and are suggesting that parents should be sure to let their children hear both sides of the argument so they can decide for themselves? If so, then I find you do not understand a Christian's parents mindset towards their childs' future. If what we say is true, then their beliefs are not so simple as choosing Republican or Democrat, it's between Paradise and Damnation (cliché, I know, but it's all I got right now), thus the parent will want to make certain their child has every advantage towards achieving that goal... So could one of you explain to me what you mean by brainwashing? Generally people in the US aren't forced at gunpoint into a church and forced to accept Christ and spew it out of their mouth ignoring all other beliefs. Yes, iNoob, the Medieval Catholic Church could have been an example of brainwashing.... Peasants did not have access to the internet and people weren't free to argue against Priests about their views.... but is that really applicable anymore?

-

Killbot, as a member here for about 2 years I've grown to respect you on these forums, but I find it hard to argue with you with respect when you blatantly disrespect my beliefs. Please, you could simply leave out:

"Time to throw this 1700 year old book out the window."
"I don't claim to know "how it is" or "how it works" but I know enough to know that I don't know enough (the world, the afterlife, take your pick). Which is more than I can say for most Christians..."

Now your last quote... I may have misunderstood it but this is what I've got: -You are intelligent enough to be humble enough to not pretend to know everything. But you are definitely more intelligent than most Christians.



This topic is so far gone.... shall we continue?

I just had a quick scan over this thread and thought it would be good to share my beliefs, just so you guys kinda know what direction many christians are coming from. First off, there are plenty of groups that claim to be "Christians". There are lots of people who I would think genuinely are, but there are also people who claim to be for many reasons such as going to church or their parents are christians but, in my opinion aren't. There is also the group who claim to be christian, but make me wonder how much they actually are, as their actions clearly don't show that. An example of these people, in my opinion are Westboro baptist church. Because of this there is a very wide spectrum of people claiming to be christian. This makes it very easy for non-Christians to generalize christians as a whole. Just because one group of people claiming to be christian say one thing doesn't mean we are all like that. In my opinion, a real christian isn't someone who is brainwashed and wants to go out and brainwash everyone else. I think a real christian genuinely think that what they have is a great thing and they just want to share how amazing it feels to have a personal relationship with the God who created the universe. discrimination against anyone or any group of people is WRONG. A christian wants to emulate Jesus as much as possible. Even you people who aren't christians must think that what he did was amazing? He reached out and helped people who were shunned and rejected from society and showed them love that no one else had given them. Even if you think it is all a story, Jesus is still an amazing person to try and be like. I try to ignore all the denominations, it seems these days there are too many barriers between different groups of christians. Instead we should all focus on trying to be more like Jesus and show people love and compassion. Something that todays society seems to sorely lack.

Pro Troll. you dont care about any of this, you only care about getting people pissed off. Go to 4chan or something.

I agree with you, I was in the mormon church years ago, but I decided to stay in the catholic church because it pissed me up when I was trying to understand why Joseph Smith was so privilege in found the books covered in gold and today there are not information about where are these books covered in gold? give me a {censored} break, you can tell that there is not true in this religion and everything was wrote by the imagination of Joseph Smith.

Yet if Joseph Smith lived 2,000 years ago and wrote this myth down...

As for the question at hand, Mormons believe in the Jesus myth, which makes them Christians.

It is always so easy to knock something that you cannot or do not wish to understand. I choose to believe in Jesus just as you choose not. You can no more prove that Jesus was a myth more than I can prove that he IS the Son of God. I find your signature particularly offensive,but it seems to fit in with your beliefs. Once again it is easy to take things out of context. Many people continuously quote a particular passage of scripture to suit what they want it to mean instead of delving in to the true meaning. No one can be a true Christian without accepting the unerring truth of God's Word as recorded in the Bible, and professing that Jesus Christ is his Lord and Saviour, and repenting of their sins. When w econfesss with our mouths and believe with our hearts then we are said to be born again in Christ.

No, it's always easy to knock something that is so blatantly wrong. Similar cases can be made with the Book of Mormon. There are many errors in there also, which South Park so lovingly pointed out.



Actually, outside of the Bible and one source proven to be a hoax, there is absolutely no historical proof of Jesus' existence. For starters, check this out that makes a good case for Jesus never existing. It's not that we're unable to prove he didn't exist; we are making the case that he didn't exist.



How is following a story to its logical conclusion taking something out of context? Seriously, how on earth can he save your soul if he can't even cure a man without trying to make pigs an extinct species? I mean, Jesus could have just said "get out" or called forth magical lightning or envelop the poor guy in magical winds or something like that.

As another example, you seriously need to stop wearing cotton/poly blends or you're going to Hell, as this violates Leviticus 19:19. People should seriously take a look at some of these biblical laws. Plus, I wouldn't have sex with a woman on her period if I were you (Leviticus 20:18)...



And let's not even get into Contradictions in the Bible. Let's not even get into how the Bible receives an F in science class.

All of those contradictions and issues come from just one site! Imagine if I would really take the time to look it up, or decided to pull from Zeitgeist...

It's not about logic, contradictions or science - it is just a simple matter of faith. If and when Jesus chooses to reveal Himself to you through His Holy Spirit then you will have faith.

Quoted before you can edit.

No, it's absolutely about logic and contradictions. Christianity isn't a logical religion because of the contradictions, and now that it's been called out, you're just stating the Bible isn't relevant because the Bible contradicts yourself.

I care only about the truth, which is what you should care about. Unfortunately the fear that is detected in your response only proves what you can't back your beliefs up with scientifically documented facts. Name calling won't help you. Repeating the same religious dogma, rhetoric and psychobabble won't help you. Only the truth will help you. The sooner you become open minded, the sooner you will be able to learn the truth with any topic matter.


THANK YOU Nonny Moose for injecting some common sense and logic into this debate! I only ask that you try to understand that most of these people literally can't help themselves. They cannot construe the facts and are quite literally programed from toddler-ship to think the way that they do. Some were punished if they disagreed with their religious parents, and fear, especially to a child, is a powerful influencer. So thank you for defending the facts and the truth, but please try and understand why they are like they are

To nebulOSX (see post 36) as a comment on the question "Even you people who aren't Christians must think that what he did was amazing?":

Yes, I do agree, being "good" and doing "good deeds" is something to strive for in life. I have this to say on the topic of "being good":

1) I'm an atheist (that is, I lack a supernatural/religious belief/faith) and to me there just seems to be so many other stories that are based on the same theme (of being good that is). To me there is basically no difference between the story of Jesus being good or the story of Superman doing good deeds. To explain it a bit lets take me and my wife as an example. I'm a bit of a sci-fi nerd whereas she is not. In fact she has never really watched any sci-fi. I have tried to explain things to her, how the center-piece story of basically every Star Trek (original and Next Gen at least) episode/movie centers on what it means to be human/moral/good, how some sci-fi is just techno-babble and how some is scientifically inspiring (I'm also a PhD in engineering, go figure). But to her all sci-fi remains just a big mix of the same thing: bad shows set in a rainy dark future/space with a lot of techno-babble (this we do agree upon ). This is how I view religious stories and the story of Superman. They are just stories (I can't deny one's had a bigger impact on human history though). I do however recognize the need in humanity to have "carriers of cultural history, morals and ethics", and as such again a lot of stories are good to have (e.g. the bible and Superman). So when you write "Even you people who aren't Christians must think that what he did was amazing?" my answer is not "yes", but rather "yes, it is a story about a good man" (since I don't think he did it).


2) It is quite common among religious people to say that atheists can't be moral. Paraphrasing: "How can they be, if they have no moral code (i.e. holy scripture)???" I live in a country where people pay between 33 and 50% income tax, where we have organized our society to care for everyone with free education (up to and including university, including foreigners), free dental care (up to 20 and there after it is subsidized quite heavily), free care in hospitals for everyone, a social safety net that gives you up to 80% of your previous salary should you run out of a job, and a governmental pension system so you do not run the risk of your old company going bankrupt and you ending up having nothing to live off of at the end of your life. This is what the most non-believing country (80% non-believers I think I read somewhere) in the world chooses to do with it's combined pool of money: taking care of each other. And not just each other, we have now roughly 11% of our population being made up of refugees that we willingly let in to our country. On top of this I have since for the last 15 years been giving money monthly to Amnesty international, UN's save the children, Greenpeace and various other organizations less regularly. Just the other month I met this African guy at the airport that lost his wallet/tickets/passport as he was flying to Africa (sorry, can't remember the specific country at the moment). He really needed to get in touch with his bank to block his credit cards etc. I gave him roughly 40 USD to make the phone calls and my sandwich since he was hungry.

Ok, sorry about the rant, my point is: humans do not need a religious faith or religious stories to be good. In fact "goodness" arises in all ordered societies on its own accord just because people understand that you can get more out of life by cooperating (and that it feels good to see a smile on someones face). If you study some anthropology you will see that social rules, ethics and morals have been around (in various formats, as is the case around the world even today) since long before any modern day religion (modern? well lets say 4000 years). In fact in biology, when higher functioning (i.e. not ants and such) animal societies are studied, it is often found that there is a certain percentage of "hawks" (those who do not follow the established social rules and instead pray on others) and of "doves" (those who do play by the established rules, i.e. are "moral"). If there are too many "hawks" the society of the animals becomes instable. It seems it is somewhat self-regulatory since there is a maximum of work/stuff/food that can be stolen (it naturally has to be lower than what is produced through "real honest work").

However you are correct in that stories has been, and still are, a primary tool for how we humans relay information (on social rules etc) between us and over generations. Stories are important in that sense.

My


P.S.
Oh yeah, if you live in the US, you should take a look at the percentage of atheists in the society and compare it to the percentage of atheists in your jails. You will find a somewhat skewed distribution. Does not really fit with the "atheist aren't moral" rant.
P.P.S
If you choose to believe in something or nothing, that is entirely up to you. However if you choose to have that supernatural belief pour over into the political arena and have beliefs not founded in things that can be methodically supported by independent people be a basis for laws that will have an impact on my life I will make it my case to criticize your arguments and try to tear it apart. This is however not the topic here today.
P.P.P.S Thank you all, I've found this thread to be quite educational.

Please do not misquote me. I did not say that the Bible was irrelevant because of contradictions -I said that it all comes down to a simple matter of faith. God gave mankind freewill - to be able to think for ourselves - I just know that when day of judgement arrives I will have nothing to fear.

Well, personally, yes, I think Mormons are Christians. They've got the same God as all of you, and the same saviour.
But then again, I'm atheist and count Jews as being almost Christian. You've also got the same god, and half your holy book is the same...

You said:



Which means the Bible doesn't matter since it's full of contradictions--only your faith does. Your entire faith, though, is based upon a book that is supposedly "infallible" yet full of contradictions. So in quoting you, I made sure you couldn't pull a ninja edit there and say the Bible does matter, even with its contradictions.

Your entire faith is based upon a man who we can't even prove existed. Now the Romans were very good historians and you would think that somebody with the sheer amount of miraculous feats of Jesus (Who is really just a retelling of Zoroaster, Horus, and many other gods and godlings before him) would make it into their records. Seriously, a guy who could walk on water and turn water into wine and replicate food DIDN'T MAKE IT INTO THE HISTORY BOOKS? Do you not see the inherent problem with this?

So your point Nonny is that anyone who does not believe in what you say is ignorant? You are accusing martin of being simple-minded while you are taking the same opinion towards Mark 5. Yes Jesus could have very easily said, "Zap!" and knocked the demon out of the man, but he chose a method demonstrating the vileness of the demon and through his removal of it, his power to save. Now you have simply picked out a verse of the Bible, taken it down word for word without actually critically thinking, ironically what you expect us as Christians to do. For example, interpret the Song of Solomon Chapter 4 literally:



If you do, it's not that pretty:




What we mean when we say "It's not about logic, it's about faith," is that we didn't sit down one day, make a pros and cons of Christianity and then BAM! decided that we're going to be Christian. Now I grew up in the Bible Belt of the South and went to church on sundays, and on and on. But personally, I believed it was a whole lot of bunk that older people did cause they were too stupid to have any real fun. It wasn't until I was in my mid-teens and my mother started a profound problem with alcoholism that I started to "wake up and smell the roses" as you might say. I was considering two options at the time. I was either going to kill myself or kill her. (Sounds kinda crazy in retrospect). At that time I truly realized how much of a mess I had become and it certainly wasn't the knowledge that I might be all alone in the universe that turned me around. Now I don't tell you this to try to make you feel sorry for me or to flaunt my own abilities of self-reparation. I tell you it to remind you that it's not a bunch of brain-washed idiots, as most anti-Christians members of this forum believe, it's people who have realized [insert random overused Christian cliché about having something more to life. It's hard to explain it in a forum post.]

Now I have a simple question: What do you believe happens when you die?

That is like saying: