There is a thread about this on another forum I'm active on and its really starting to irritate me. The thread is full of stereotypical Americans placing all the blame on Russia and talking about how the US should attack Russia and Iran.

What do you guys think of all of this?

I feel that the Georgians, Russians and South Ossetians are more than capable of solving things. The US should work the UN and other countries to help broker a cease fire that will insure an end to future conflicts in South Ossetia.

Personnaly, US don't have any link with the Georgia (I think I spell it correctly). Anyway, US make it on his own, seat on the Security Council of the UN and waiting to see what Russian speak about this "defense" standing on top of his own ex territory. Russians wait til this moment to get this chance to bring back Ossetia to their own federation. Georgia is so poor and they abilities on military are very low skills. They can't stand up in the front of bilions dollar army formed by the Russia Federation. A bazooka vis a old jeep of the 70's didn't make any difference but draws clearly the future of this country.

My speech doesn't sound pro-georgian but at all, why taking chance to be overkilled by over-ressourced country and ready to take em back for swinging this country from poor to minimal life.

It's the stereotypical Americans that bug me about this country.

Yes, Georgia is allied with the US. That DOES NOT mean we have to get militarily involved when they have a border conflict! People need to realize that the US is not the all-powerful king of the world. Things need to be able to happen without that threat of US military action hanging over everything.

The United States does not need to and should NOT get involved on the military front. Like Erei33 said, the US needs to work the diplomatic side: lobby the UN to help draft a cease-fire agreement amicable to all parties concerned. This does need to happen fast, though... I'm not sure how long the Georgian military will be able to stand up to the Russians.

Alex Jones (http://www.infowars.com) spoke with Prof. Michel Chossudosky, who is supposed an expect on this region, about this subject on 8/11/08: http://www.radiodujour.com/people/chossudovsky_michel/

Prof. Chossudosky makes it explictly clear that Georgia, acting a US proxy, initiated this war:

Georgia is an outpost of US and NATO forces, on the immediate border of the Russian Federation and within proximity of the Middle East Central Asian war theater. South Ossetia is also at the crossroads of strategic oil and gas pipeline routes.

Georgia does not act militarily without the assent of Washington. The Georgian head of State is a US proxy and Georgia is a de facto US protectorate.

Who is behind this military agenda? What interests are being served? What is the purpose of the military operation.

There is evidence that the attacks were carefully coordinated by the US military and NATO.

...

Georgia was "encouraged" by NATO and the US. Both Washington and NATO headquarters in Brussels were acutely aware of what would happen in the case of a Russian counterattack.

The question is: was this a deliberate provocation intended to trigger a Russian military response and suck the Russians into a broader military confrontation with Georgia (and allied forces) which could potentially escalate into an all out war?

Georgia has the third largest contingent of coalition forces in Iraq after the US and the UK, with some 2000 troops. According to reports, Georgian troops in Iraq are now being repatriated in US military planes, to fight Russian forces. (See Debka.com, August 10, 2008)

This US decision to repatriate Georgian servicemen suggests that Washington is intent upon an escalation of the conflict, where Georgian troops are to be used as cannon fodder against a massive deployment of Russian forces.

US-NATO and Israel Involved in the Planning of the Attacks

In mid-July, Georgian and U.S. troops held a joint military exercise entitled "Immediate Response" involving respectively 1,200 US and 800 Georgian troops.

The announcement by the Georgian Ministry of Defense on July 12 stated that they US and Georgian troops were to "train for three weeks at the Vaziani military base" near the Georgian capital, Tbilisi. (AP, July 15, 2008). These exercises, which were completed barely a week before the August 7 attacks, were an obvious dress rehearsal of a military operation, which, in all likelihood, had been planned in close cooperation with the Pentagon.

The war on Southern Ossetia was not meant to be won, leading to the restoration of Georgian sovereignty over South Ossetia. It was intended to destabilize the region while also triggering a US-NATO confrontation with Russia.

On July 12, coinciding with the outset of the Georgia-US war games, the Russian Defense Ministry started its own military maneuvers in the North Caucasus region. The usual disclaimer by both Tblisi and Moscow: the military exercises have “nothing to do” with the situation in South Ossetia. (Ibid)

Let us be under no illusions. This is not a civil war. The attacks are an integral part of the broader Middle East Central Asian war, including US-NATO-Israeli war preparations in relation to Iran.

The Role of Israeli Military Advisers

While NATO and US military advisers did not partake in the military operation per se, they were actively involved in the planning and logistics of the attacks. According to Israeli sources (Debka.com, August 8, 2008), the ground assault on August 7-8, using tanks and artillery was "aided by Israeli military advisers". Israel also supplied Georgia with Hermes-450 and Skylark unmanned aerial vehicles, which were used in the weeks leading up to the August 7 attacks.

...

Russian forces are now directly fighting a NATO-US trained Georgian army integrated by US and Israeli advisers. And Russian warplanes have attacked the military jet factory on the outskirts of Tbilisi, which produces the upgraded Su-25 fighter jet, with technical support from Israel. (CTV.ca, August 10, 2008)

...

Georgia: NATO-US Outpost

Georgia is part of a NATO military alliance (GUAM) signed in April 1999 at the very outset of the war on Yugoslavia. It also has a bilateral military cooperation agreement with the US. These underlying military agreements have served to protect Anglo-American oil interests in the Caspian sea basin as well as pipeline routes.

Both the US and NATO have a military presence in Georgia and are working closely with the Georgian Armed Forces. Since the signing of the 1999 GUAM agreement, Georgia has been the recipient of extensive US military aid.

Barely a few months ago, in early May, the Russian Ministry of Defense accused Washington, "claiming that [US as well as NATO and Israeli] military assistance to Georgia is destabilizing the region." (Russia Claims Georgia in Arms Buildup, Wired News, May 19, 2008). According to the Russian Defense Ministry

"Georgia has received 206 tanks, of which 175 units were supplied by NATO states, 186 armored vehicles (126 - from NATO) , 79 guns (67 - from NATO) , 25 helicopters (12 - from NATO) , 70 mortars, ten surface-to-air missile systems, eight Israeli-made unmanned aircraft, and other weapons. In addition, NATO countries have supplied four combat aircraft to Georgia. The Russian Defense Ministry said there were plans to deliver to Georgia 145 armored vehicles, 262 guns and mortars, 14 combat aircraft including four Mirazh-2000 destroyers, 25 combat helicopters, 15 American Black Hawk aircraft, six surface-to-air missile systems and other arms." (Interfax News Agency, Moscow, in Russian, Aug 7, 2008)

NATO-US-Israeli assistance under formal military cooperation agreements involves a steady flow of advanced military equipment as well as training and consulting services.

According to US military sources (spokesman for US European Command), the US has more than 100 "military trainers" in Georgia. A Pentagon spokesman Bryan Whitman "said there were no plans to redeploy the estimated 130 US troops and civilian contractors, who he said were stationed in the area around Tblisi" (AFP, 9 August 2008). In fact, US-NATO military presence in Georgia is on a larger scale to that acknowledged in official statements. The number of NATO personnel in Georgia acting as trainers and military advisers has not been confirmed.

Although not officially a member of NATO, Georgia's military is full integrated into NATO procedures. In 2005, Georgian president proudly announced the inauguration of the first military base, which "fully meets NATO standards". Immediately following the inauguration of the Senakskaya base in west Georgia, Tblisi announced the opening of a second military base at Gori which would also "comply with NATO regulations in terms of military requirements as well as social conditions." (Ria Novosti, 26 May 2006).

The Gori base has been used to train Georgian troops dispatched to fight under US command in the Iraq war theater.


http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?con...va&aid=9788

I believe a mission called "immediate response" is mainly used for defense, in response to, say, russian paratroopers landing in your capitol. i doubt 2000 troops would fare well against the russian army.
The US isn't going to get involved in this, at least I hope not. It's not our job to clean up the mess of all the countries of the world anymore. Russia can go on their little land grab fest for all i care.

I think that is one main reason the US started this war, to get warmongering Americans irritated with Russia (and Iran). It looks like this could escalate into a much larger conflict.

Webster Tarpley seems to have predicted this sort of an event recently. Basically, Tarpley has identified that the powers-that-be (New World Order or whatever) have indeed selected Obama to be the next US President. Obama's controller appears to be Zbigniew Brzezinski, who as a Pole hates Russia and described the US plan for domination of Central Asia in the book: "The Grand Chessboard: American Primacy And Its Geostrategic Imperatives ": http://www.amazon.com/Grand-Chessboard-Ame...s/dp/0465027261

Tarpley discussed the switch from the US engaging the Middle East (Iran) to engaging Russia & China (specifically via Pakistan and Sudan) in this interview with Alex Jones (http://infowars.com) on 7/30/08: http://www.radiodujour.com/people/tarpley_webster/

This is not a "border conflict". This is yet another war over oil (surprise, surprise):

DEBKAfile’s geopolitical experts note that on the surface level, the Russians are backing the separatists of S. Ossetia and neighboring Abkhazia as payback for the strengthening of American influence in tiny Georgia and its 4.5 million inhabitants. However, more immediately, the conflict has been sparked by the race for control over the pipelines carrying oil and gas out of the Caspian region.

The Russians may just bear with the pro-US Georgian president Mikhail Saakashvili’s ambition to bring his country into NATO. But they draw a heavy line against his plans and those of Western oil companies, including Israeli firms, to route the oil routes from Azerbaijan and the gas lines from Turkmenistan, which transit Georgia, through Turkey instead of hooking them up to Russian pipelines.

Saakashvili need only back away from this plan for Moscow to ditch the two provinces’ revolt against Tbilisi. As long as he sticks to his guns, South Ossetia and Abkhazia will wage separatist wars.

DEBKAfile discloses Israel’s interest in the conflict from its exclusive military sources:

Jerusalem owns a strong interest in Caspian oil and gas pipelines reach the Turkish terminal port of Ceyhan, rather than the Russian network. Intense negotiations are afoot between Israel Turkey, Georgia, Turkmenistan and Azarbaijan for pipelines to reach Turkey and thence to Israel’s oil terminal at Ashkelon and on to its Red Sea port of Eilat. From there, supertankers can carry the gas and oil to the Far East through the Indian Ocean.

Aware of Moscow’s sensitivity on the oil question, Israel offered Russia a stake in the project but was rejected.
http://www.debka.com/article.php?aid=1358

One thing's for sure, Georgia won't mess with Russia again

A cease fire has been reached, but I hope the South Ossetian problems as a whole can be resolved so this never occurs again.

Georgia may have started the problem, but Russia definitely overreacted.
That's my take.

EDIT: From another forum

Yeah now watch the US get involved and this become a whole huge mess.

Georgia did not start the problem, Dick Cheney did.

It is no accident that this coincided with the Olympics (with George Bush out of the USA.)

Cheney might as well have signed his name on the bullets that Georgian "peacekeepers" shot dead their Russian colleges with (an international war crime).

I really don't know where you've got this rubbish, but it's idiotic to suggest that the US would want this conflict, or even try to start it.
The war gave Russia the opportunity to control western oil and gas even more than they do now, giving them the chance to crush our economies, even start another major conflict.
Thankfully, they've stop now

I am sorry I have to disagree with you, PM, but if I had to put my bets on "the bad guy", that wouldn't be Russia.
Putin is not an idiot and he knows that they are a lot weaker than the US + Nato.

I'm not calling Russia a bad guy - I'm just saying they have the potential to be, and it was given to them on a silver platter at the start of this conflict. The fact that they have pulled out gives more in the favour of Russia being the good guy!

I guess my wording wasn't clear - it's late
All I'm saying is that suggesting the US did this is ridiculous, as it gave Russia a situation where they could have massive control over the west.

We have over 800 military bases world wide. We spend more on our military and "defense" than the rest of the world combined. We have so many pacts, treaties, and "understandings" that there really isn't much of anything that can happen in the world without the United States feeling obliged to step in.

I understand the impulse to save the world... I'm as cowboy as the next red blooded American and I want us to ride in on our white horse and vanquish the bad guy... my heart aches when I see the suffering in the world... BUT WTF?!!!!! It's not like we have the Midas Touch! Quite the contrary! Recently, everything we seem to get involved in freaking blows up in our face. Why? BECAUSE LIKE IT OR NOT, WE ARE FREAKING CULTURAL XENOPHOBES WHO OBVIOUSLY DON'T KNOW JACK! We demand that everyone everywhere think like we do... value what we value... want what we want. I love the American way of life.... I want the world to unite under the banner of liberty and brotherhood... but it isn't going to happen at the end of an American missile!

Some may think Thomas Jefferson a relic from a bygone era... a naive idealist. In truth, he wasn't perfect but he was a man of principle. Principle is what sets the statesman apart from the mere politician. The world is full of politicians doing the bidding of greedy, arrogant, hypocrites. The world is awash with good intention but it's drowned out by political expedience. Militarism can not save the world. It can only serve as a temporary stop gap measure. Only true statesmanship can exact lasting change. Yet, where is the investment? Our diplomatic corps is a complete laughingstock!

Truth is, BOTH sides have valid concerns. Neither side is exactly lilly pure either... nor are we. This crisis has been in the making for decades and encompasses a boat load of issues. There is enough fault to engulf East and West. This garbage of "news as entertainment" we are all choking on these days prevents all but the most careful researcher from understanding what is truly going on. Hell, I can't understand it fully but what I have figured out reeks to high heaven. American national interest has taken priority over truth and justice for a very long time. Intelligent debate is all but dead in this country. And before any of you conspiracy theorists chime in with your ignorant slop, Washington certainly does NOT want war but I have to agree their myopic interests in the region aren't helping alleviate that threat. Unless they vote, ally against our "enemies," or provide us with the goods and services we desire, my government doesn't really give a rats ass about anyone's pursuit of life, liberty, happiness, or democracy. In short, WE ARE THE POT CALLING THE KETTLE BLACK. We have been every bit as dishonest and manipulative as any other participant. Geopolitics is ugly and Washington plays to win. Too bad their game plan is totally !

Georgia has a secessionist region that is being disputed. How would Russia have liked it if all of NATO backed up Chechnyas efforts. I think Russia wants to start playing world police like the US. Although I have no idea why Russia wouldn't want to integrate to the west and is trying to be like the old Soviet Union now...

Photo from South Ossetia | 11 august 2008:


Tskhinvali | © AP Photo / Mikhail Metzel


Tskhinvali | © AP Photo / Mikhail Metzel


Tskhinvali | © AP Photo / Mikhail Metzel


Tskhinvali | © AP Photo / Mikhail Metzel


Tskhinvali | © AP Photo / Mikhail Metzel


Achabet: Russian peacekeepers killed :-( | © AP Photo / Alexander Merkushev


Achabet | © AP Photo / Alexander Merkushev

Photo from South Ossetia | 13 august 2008:


Tskhinvali | © AP Photo / Musa Sadullaev


Tskhinvali | © AP Photo / Musa Sadullaev


Tskhinvali / Russian mobile hospital | © AP Photo / Musa Sadullaev

PS. The Georgian army is ready to American officers:

Sorry for my English :-)


The U.S. rulers have made a lot of grief for Russia!

Well said!

Its not the United States fault that Russia decided to become a depressive police state and couldn't keep up with capitalisms technology. Capitalism is the only fair economic system that rewards risk. All of Russias suffering is brought onto themselves.

Remember you that Russia comes out from the communism. That way for lead a country is very hard. Mean people living on a little apartment with nothing to eat. All of your salary is gone to the govt. You can't shout everything loud whitout seeing the police knocking at your door. After this periode ended in the early 90's, they still live between capitalism and communism. Russsia still living on his own and hope they can pick up olds Ex URSSS countries to becoming extraordinary strenght an another time... Time will go on and lord only know the future like my grandpa said..

So, now we have the US starting its military occupation of Georgia:

TBILISI (Reuters) - President George W. Bush's pledge to send aid to Georgia means that the U.S. military will take control of the ex-Soviet state's ports and airports, Georgian President Mikheil Saakashvili said on Wednesday.

"You have heard the statement by the U.S. president that the United States is starting a military-humanitarian operation in Georgia," Saakashvili said in a television address.

"It means that Georgian ports and airports will be taken under the control of the U.S. defense ministry in order to conduct humanitarian and other missions. This is a very important statement for easing tension."
http://www.reuters.com/article/gc07/idUSLD49893320080813

Note how ridiculous the last statement is: "This is a very important statement for easing tension". Yes, I am sure the having US troops occupying Georgia will ease Russian tensions.

You are obviously the type of fool who watches BBC propaganda, eats it raw and then makes an a$$ out of himself insisting it is unbiased information.

Guess what? Both the BBC and CNN have been busted broadcasting fake news casts on this war:

http://www.infowars.com/?p=3904&cp=5
http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?con...va&aid=9783

Here is Paul Craig Roberts bio:

Dr. Roberts was Assistant Secretary of the US Treasury in the Reagan Administration. He is a former Associate Editor of the Wall Street Journal, a 16-year columnist for Business Week, and a columnist for the Scripps Howard News Service and Creator’s Syndicate in Los Angeles. He has held numerous university professorships, including the William E. Simon Chair in Political Economy, Center for Strategic and International Studies, Georgetown University and Senior Research Fellow, Hoover Institution, Stanford University. He was awarded the Legion of Honor by the President of France and the US Treasury’s Silver Medal for “outstanding contributions to the formulation of US economic policy.”

Here is what he has to say:

From Stupid to Moronic to Evil
...
[T]he entire world knows that Georgia (the birthplace of Joseph Stalin... ) initiated the aggression that killed Russian peacekeepers and hundreds of civilians in South Ossetia, peacekeepers who were there with the blessing of Georgia and international agreements.
...
Georgia was part of Old Russia and the Soviet Union for two centuries. After Soviet communism collapsed, the US taxpayer funded neoconservative National Endowment for Democracy broke every agreement that President Reagan had made with Gorbachev and began using US taxpayers’ money to rig and purchase elections in former constituent parts of the Russian/Soviet empire.

The Endowment for Democracy purchased Georgia as a US colony. The affront to Russia was extreme, but at the time Russia was weak. Oligarchs with outside money had grabbed control over Russian resources, and Russia was in dire straits and could not resist American imperialism.
...
Now using American weapons Georgia for reasons yet to be revealed has violated its own agreement with Russia and attacked South Ossetia, killing in the process Russian peacekeepers.
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article20483.htm

Georgia is controlled by the US (Dick Cheney):

Using Georgia to Target Russia
...
In 2003 with considerable CIA help, Georgia’s President Saskashvili came to power in the so-called bloodless "Rose Revolution."
...
New parliamentary elections were held on March 28. Saakashvili’s supporters used heavy-handed tactics to gain full control, but behind the scenes Washington is fully in charge. It pulls the strings on its new man in Georgia and stepped up tensions with Russia for control of the strategically important southern Causasus region.
http://globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=9816

And why are we to believe that Alex Jones of infowars.com is telling the truth?

Fox News: 12 Year Old Girl Truth about Georgia:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q1LrRS-IKBo

American citizen Joe Mestas in South Ossetia, Tshinvali:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wqccw0IIFjI

The Truth about Georgia gets censored again on TV
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WtdVS8646GI

Two words. Holy {censored}.

If the US goes to Georgia then we're screwed, watch Russia put up missiles in Cuba and a few other places, I mean, it's not like this isn't a bad situation. Watch this be a second Iraq.

Hi All

I will try to explain to you (from the best of my knowledge) in an easy to understand way why Russia is invading Georgia. Georgia have become allies with the US as many of you know. Russia do not like this at all. They have some sort of illusion that everyone around them should follow them as the leader and not join in with Western Society such as the US. So with the invasion they are showing everyone that if they do not follow their lead consequences will happen and they will regret it. They also have another motive. They want to show all countries around the World that the big US is not going to help them in their time of need. They are sort of daring the US to do something. Its a Win-Win. If the US does something they get the war they wanted so they can take over the world and if the US does nothing it makes the US look weak and Russia look strong.

Hope this helps
Mr Mook Mook

Good Post!

lol, ok, if you say so

Georgia started it. And IMHO Russia did the right thing for now. Imagine what would a half of Asia and a quarter of Europe would become if Russia just stood back and tolerated everything.

Oh, and USA should just off. I'm not against US people, I'm against the US foreign policy since Woodrow Wilson.

Exactly, I think Russia has been well within it's boundaries - someone needs to tell the Georgian President to take a jog

Georgia started it?

Georgia was attacked by secessionists... Russia was just itching to get into the fight.


Russia has been war mongering all year long... doing jet flybys over Georgia probably preparing for the attack by adding more troops in breakaway regions. Lifting economic sanctions on Abkhazia... Believe me Georgia did not start this..


Georgia did not start fighting with Russia. This was a civil war. Russia is a terrible country in which citizens do not have press freedom and political opponents of the ruling party are jailed and harassed. Russia is a terrible country to have as world police. Russia is hardly a democracy.


The 12 year old girl video is PATHETIC. She only knows her little area in South Ossetia not the outskirts where the initial fighting broke out. Leave it to fox news to exploit something like this...

+1. You hit the nail on the head!

Noooo. I guess Georgia was spending 70% of its funds on military because the president had a hobby of driving tanks.

South Ossetia is really a de-facto independent country since 1989. They already had one war with Georgia in early 90-s (without Russia intervening) and proved that their independence will not be taken from them.

Although officially and de-jure they are a part of Georgia (according to old soviet maps), de-facto they are another country.

90% of the population is Ossetian and not Georgian. More than a half of them have Russian citizenship.

Georgia (a country with the most powerful military after Russia in the region -- invaded South Ossetia and started conducting genocide on its own citizens (!) for several hours as well as killing 12 Russian peace-keepers in the process BEFORE Russia intervened. 1 400 civilians were killed by the Georgian forces BEFORE Russian army entered Georgia. And at least 600 after.

Then there was fighting for several days, and it seems that now (after Russia defended the South Ossetian people) the war is over. Russia withdrew its troops from Georgia proper yesterday and now its workers and peace-keepers are re-building South Ossetia.

The Western media (specially CNN and BBC) have never mentioned that it was Georgia who attacked first and literally leveled South Ossetia to the ground.

They haven't said that Russian troops have the international jurisdiction to be in South Ossetia as peace-keepers. And what they did (namely, stopped the genocide of Ossetians) WAS what they should have done according to international laws, regulations and jurisdictions.

Why does the West cheer on when Kosovo separated from Serbia but condemns South Ossetia and Abkhazia when they try to do the same to avoid being EXTERMINATED as a people?

Why does the West cheer when Bush attacks Iraq to plunder its resources and shows fake indignation when Russia intervenes into DE-FACTO independent South Ossetia for humanitarian purposes?

I tell you why -- double standards. Everything, even genocide is allowed to friends of the US, and EVERYTHING, even outright lies is good enough to discredit those who oppose U.S. domination.



Saakashvili eats own tie
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=YDm9cMG_j9Y

Haha, brilliant!
It's almost the sort of thing you'd expect Bush to do

@iTiger: Great post bud, I couldn't stand the biased media coverage we received stateside.

Yeah agreed..

1. Increasing the size and spendings of a military has nothing to do with starting a war with Russia.
2. Do you have any proof Georgia spends 70% of its funds on a army of less than 40,000 troups
3. Russia has one of the biggest militaries in the world and is one of the biggest spenders and suppliers of military weapons.


Ok iTiger where are you from. You either never read western news or live under a rock if your from the "west"
1. Western media has reported that Georgia attacked first. It has also been reported that Georgia has suffered major infrastructure losses and that their are many refugees Its absurd for you to think that the West doe not have reliable independent media while Russia has almost no opposition media. Western media has also reported South Ossetia is a defacto independent country. However it isn't recognized by any country, not even Russia. Every country in the world recognized Georgias claim over it until a week ago when Russia decided to humiliate a neighbor.
2. Humanitarian purpaces??? If you really believe that you need to wake up. Russia did this to flex their military muscles and scare NATO. Russia wants to reassert its influence over the former territories in the USSR which are now increasingly "defecting" to NATO.
3. It has been reported by RUSSIANS that ethnic cleansing is going on in south ossetia by the ossetians.
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/15/world/eu...amp;oref=slogin

You know what the best part is? In this supposed humanitarian intervention Russia isn't even stopping murdering from happening. Russia officers admit ossetians are maundering ethnic georgian now. Heres a nice quote:
"We're not a police force, we're a military force," said a Russian lieutenant colonel in response to a reporter's question. "It's not our job to do police work." - this in response to ossetian rampaging against ethnic georgians.
4. Genocide? While it may me happening on a small scale Russia has clearly been exaggerating:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/aug/13/georgia
Russia estimates 2000 people are dead.
Yet 44 were brought to the morgue. Only 273 checked into hospitals. Russia is obviously exaggerating.
5. The majority of the "west" did not cheer on when the United States invaded Iraq. A large portion of Americans disagreed with it as well. Still, Iraq was a dictatorship. Georgia is a free country.
6. More on Genocide - their is no proof whatsoever about the Georgian military intentionally killing Ossetian civillians - at least none that has been independently confirmed.
On the other hand - their is lots of proof that serbia massacred its own citizens. In Kosovo their was probable reason for NATO to think Serbia was up to something (bosnia genocide). In South Ossetia their is no proof of a genocide. I think it is quite clear that retaking South Ossetia was done for politcal reasons to extend Georgias influence.

Their is always a little bias in reporting but it is absurd to think Russian reports are better sources of information than international news organizations like Reuters and the Associated press. Russia isn't even considered a free county by most western people.

You are also blatantly lying or ignorant.

The Kremlin has not pulled out its troops and it certainly did not yesterday

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/17/world/eu.../17georgia.html

I wrote about this on my blog
------

The worrying thing to me is how similar these tactics are to that of Nazi Germany's take over of Czechoslovakia.
Step 1: Incite a group of local followers. Like ethnic Germans in Sudetenland here the Ossetians were supported and encouraged by Russia.
Step 2: Misuse the principle of self-determination.
Step 3: All this in the background of a bad global economy. Depression then, oil crisis now. Which seems to makes people sympathetic to extremist movements.

Prepare for World War 3 my friends. Reinforce that bunker your grandparents hid under.

Viva la Resistance! or if I am on the other side: Viva la anti-Resistance!
--------
On a serious note do you think the US is the ONLY country interested in controlling the world events. Russia and increasingly China (think Sudan) are also extending their influence. This is not a movie with one villain and the rest of the characters being innocent. The unipolar world is coming to a end and we are returning to a multipolar world.

Not too long ago Japan massacred 1000s in Asia. Not too long ago Belgium nearly wiped out the population of Congo. Not too long ago the Catholic church launched Inquisitions. It's the nature of the power.

It's interesting M16, your viewpoint seems to reflect the dominant view of most western media. That is, Russia is the bad guy, end of story.

The trouble is, western media isn't always completely unbiased, so I wouldn't be so sure about your view...

Sorry I got here late.

But for those of you who were suggesting that the UN take care of this, I just wanted to make you aware that Russia has veto power over the UN Security Council.

Also, if Georgia were part of NATO, Russia would probably not be doing this. However, this doesn't mean I support Georgia's bid to join NATO. It also doesn't mean I don't support it. I'm undecided.



It sounded to me like he was pointing out that Western Media™ had indeed reported on this.



Hey, I agree that Western Media™ isn't always completely unbiased. As soon as you find me a news source that IS unbiased, let us know.

To me it sounds like iTiger's source of knowledge is ignoring common knowledge in the West.

Russia had been playing a game of chicken with Georgia before Georgia attacked south ossetia. Moscow was increasing troups in North Ossetia and running military exercises. It also started flying over Georgia with fighter jets. If that isn't a provocation I don't know what is. Putin has expressed his dismay with Saakashvili and his desire to oust him from power.... Right now Russian troops are 25 miles from the capital of Georgia.

Right now Russia is running a propoganda show. They are claiming they need time to protect south ossettia... meanwhile the georgian army has surrendered and ossetians are looting in south ossetia. Russia claims that their have been 2000 ossetian civilians dead intentionally... yet barely 1/50th of that has been confirmed by the WHO.

Could their have been been a small problem? Maybe... but Russia continues to bully Georgia by advancing further into Georgia (25 miles from capital) and continuing to blow infrastructure up... after signing a ceasefire. It is hard to think Moscow is fighting a noble cause. The more logical though it that Moscow wants to oust the democratically elected leader of Georgia, Sasskashvili. This is disturbing. Russia has also been conducting cyber attacks against Georgia and Estonia. Russia is starting to look like a nationalistic imperialistic country.

I completely support Georgia joining NATO. If Iceland can be in NATO surely a small democratic county like Georgia can join. The west needs to support democracies...

It' funny USA has been doing that for a while....



OK, OK, I exaggerated.

However there still is something. Then why did Georgia increase its military funds so abruptly?

(source:eurasianet.org)

Georgia may have increased its funds out of necessity. Maybe it wanted modernize its weapons. It probably had this invasion on its mind too. Since you didn't post a link to the article I need to judge this by a tiny snippet but it seems that this was only a one year increase.

A sovereign democracy dealing with secessionists is no reason for an invasion though.

What makes these ossetians so great anyway? Right now it seems they are taking advantage of Georgian citizens.

I don't get you russian sympathizers... its obvious russia has been war mongering by providing ossetians russian passports, dropping sanctions against them and provoking georgia with military exercises and flybys over georgia...

all of you should read this:
http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8...1832699,00.html

I'm not a Russian sympathizer, I just think Russia made a somewhat right decision.
That whole region is rather unstable and prone to civil wars, so imho Russia may bombed a region, but it may have saved the region from several civil wars in other states. Remember, these states may be extremely poor, but they still have some ex-soviet military units that together with the unstable politics make them a potentially dangerous cocktail.

I from Russia/Osetia/Vladikavkaz...
I watch BBC World. I read The Times. I speak with journalists from S. Osetia. I speak with the refugees from S. Osetia.
The truth only in the West? :-)

PS. The budget of the Georgian army $1 billion. What for?

___

Photo Arkady Babchenko from S. Osetia 10.08.08 - 13.08.08 (Tskhinvali/Zemo-Nikozi/road to Gori):

Georgia would have been able to take back South Ossetia if it wasn't for Russia. A country of 4 million people would certainly be able to contain a small area (ossetia) that has a population less of my "city" in the US.

I agree that the region is unstable, but it is because of Russia. Russia is supplying the breakaway regions with support and ammunition.

iTiger, what justifies russia invading? Your pictures are pretty much useless because none are labeled.Why do you think the west is hiding facts? What am I missing? Do you think dumping a bunch of pictures will help you win a debate?

Speak on the TV? :-)

PS. sponsor of war of the USA!

No, I don't watch TV. I get my news from the associated press and reuters.

Criticizing the US doesn't change the fact the Russia is also war mongering. And you need to wake up man. The United States does not equal the west.

You need to have respect for this debate too. In the west (intelligent) people don't mock peoples opinions without logic or reason behind it.

Are you saying Russia does nothing to help breakaway regions? Russia doesn't arm them? Russia doesn't give them passports?

Obviously Russia felt it had enough at steak in Ossetia to invade...

As for being hypocritical.... you say the United States is a sponsor of war.. Russia and the US are currently trading places as the top weapons producers in the world.... Most of the west supports the US over russia though because the US is not as corrupt as Russia and the US has free elections and high human rights/press freedoms...Also the US hasn't invaded a democratic country in hundreds of years...