I am a long time hackintosh user, a contributing member on the OS X86 forums... and an avid ebayer.

I decided to sell my acer aspire one to help pay some late bills, after all... the new netbooks will be out soon.


The sale ended yesterday and the buyer payed in full via paypal.

this morning i wake up, check my email, and find out that the item has been removed, that i cannot contact the buyer to verify if he still wants it... and that his paypal information doesn't match up to any phone records, neither does his name. Ebay's site has blocked me from contacting that user completely, therefore i cannot request the user's phone # online. I've sent him emails via multiple accounts... everything returns saying the email can't be reached.

While discussing this with the Ebay rep. he told me that apple had sent ebay "Signed & photocopied Legal Documents" which require ebay to remove the listing by law. I asked him if he could give me the email, a name, a phone number to those bringing the charge against me. He was not able. I asked him whom my lawyer could contact to see the "documents" he said that was not allowed. By US law: i have the right to see the documents.

I asked him for contact information to ebay's legal dept. he refused... ackowledged that there was a legal dept. and that he had the contact information. So i asked him who my lawyer could contact at ebay... and he said that "my lawyer would know".

so let me get this straight:
my account was suspended, item removed (after the sale had closed), and i was blocked from communicating with the buyer. and I'm not allowed to exercise my right to see said documents???? I'm not alowed to contact the legal dept??? I have the right to represent myself.

and the kicker:
all because apple is a power tripping, controlling company. The only thing apple cold do is to not "support" the hardware. that is what their EULA is for. The EULA is clearly designed to PROTECT APPLE... NOT TO CONTROL THE END USER.

And why the didn't apple CONTACT ME???????

I WANT MY EBAY ACCOUNT BACK!

/RANT

CALL ME YOU APPLE.

Can you return his money back?
If he has payed via paypal, you can get his email address in your profile.

Oh my god, are you serious? I never thought Apple was like that, why Apple did all these things to your account? I don't understand well...

i tried to contact him via email, i kept getting a failed to reach contact return message.

i am just waiting for him to contact me now... since his paypal info is outdated... i dont even know where to send the thing.

were you selling the laptop with osx on it?

As I said previously before it was deleted: you're retarded.

Dude if you sell a non Apple laptop with os x on it, your just like psystar and your gonna get in trouble

stroke, i saw the other post via email... yes, i'm not the brightest... but i still believe i have the right to do what i want with the operating system. I wasn't including the OS install disc or even my purchased retail copy (my family has multiple macs... we bought the fam. pack to upgrade)

however, what i do with osx is my business. again, the EULA is to protect the company, not to control the end user. It's not like I was charging a premium for it, and if anything i got less money because osx was installed... so it's not like i made some crazy margin cause of the os. (I got $250 for acer aspire one 120gig hd 1 gig ram Dell 1505 wireless external usb drive... cost me $390 total with shipping)

In my eyes, psystar is different, a commercial company needs to work out commercial plans for licensing the OS... especially if psystar is going to claim to support their hardware.

idc... it runs mac, apple isn't responsible to support it... but they can't manipulate me, my account, or what i do with it. that's against my rights. and as far as ebay goes, if i request the legal documents that supposedly were signed by some judge or whomever... i have the right to see them. And don't tell me you can't give me information to your freaking legal dept... that's wack.


rough analogy:
it's one thing for me to swap a honda motor into a ford... and sell it on ebay/craigslist... but it's entireley differnt for me to start a car company and buy fords, and swap jdm engines in them and resell them... that, ford could have a problem with, lol.

and please don't read into it too much... or try to get all rhetorical.

again, acording to the ebay rep apple cited me breaking the EULA, that's what im discusing.

I understand your point, but dude, you can't sell a PC with OS X installed. It is really unethical. What you could probably do, was to sell the PC without OS and include original OS X disks. That perhaps could be legal in Apple eyes.

I think OSx86 is like smoking weed. It's not legal but since so many people think it is they're willing to do stupid things with it and then complain when they get in trouble.

I mean honestly - what do you expect? You play ball, expect there to be a chance you'll lose.

If you're trying to sell the aspire with osx86 on it, that's something you can't do. What you can do is, sell the aspire, saying it can run osx86.

Yeah, I agree with the past posters. Selling a laptop when blatantly stating that you have OSX86 running on it is kind of a recipe for trouble.

It's stated in the EULA that you are not owning a copy of the software, but just a right to use the software depending on if you respect their terms.

So yeah, that was kind of a bad move on your part

Seriously, that is stupid.
You should have erased the HD with the 35-pass 0-write out and then sell it.

Legal in Apple's eyes doesnt mean {censored}. They dont make the laws.
Apple is just scared because people are getting a better deal than they offer and the more people realize that apple's hardware is nothing special and osx works well on other hardware the less people are going to pay the exorbitant prices.

I would fight this, OP. Call ebay and ask to talk to the manager or whoever is in charge around there. Dont waste your time with whoever answers your call. Selling a computer with osx on it is not illegal. It violates the EULA, but the EULA is not the law. You should not have had your listing removed and i would make a big fuss about it. If nothing else you will waste alot of the managers time and piss him/her of as well.

You shouldn't be selling a laptop with OS X running illegally on it; however, you do have the right to contact the Apple legal team and demand the charge brought against you and the evidence pertaining to the charge, but that's as far as I would go.

BTW don't sell laptop running OS X if its not a mac, just dumb

I worked in a call center for over a year. I tried everything i could, ebay straight refuses to transfer you. refuses to give you info... they are however very well trained and very polite... and it's not the managers it's the legal dept that i want to talk to. as far as apple goes:

WTF didn't they call me!?!!!?! apple, where are your balls? apparent;y you used them up on psystar??!??

big companies with big monies are scared of big lawsuits... so they bend the rules to save them money. well not if it infringes on my rights. I requested the legal dept. they refuse me the info... i request someone from apple to contact... they decline that they have such info... then WHO THE HECK signed LEGAL DOCUMENTS AGAINST ME?!!!?!?

WTF.

so sure, i shouldn't have sold it on ebay... it's a a thin line... apple is a bunch insecure of control freaks... and what not... but wtf. OMG i sold something that apple doesn't like. whhooppdeeedoo... send me the cease and desist order!?!!!? don't use ebay as your F@#@(#@ mouth piece, apple.

at this point i doubt i will ever buy a real mac.

Well I agree that it is "sort of unfair" what eBay did.
And surly I also would be pisssed and swear not ever to buy a real Mac.

But why did you not sell OS X seperate from the notebook? Why take a chance?
We all here know we are in the legally gray area (depending where you live)
So why take a chance?


All very unfortunate the way it went...

Very disparate by apple. Hope you come out ok.

Wow, you're dumb.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EULA

You don't own the product. When you buy Mac, you license the product out. It is illegal, since you are selling a version of their OS on a computer not manufactured by them. If it were your company, and your OS, you'd do the same. There's nothing to defend this guy with. He did something that has been told over and over and over not to do, but still did it. There are topics all over this site saying that osx86 is illegal.

EULA is something you agree to when you use the product. If you aren't following it, you're breaking contract, which is illegal. Apple didn't make any laws, but they're following them.

It's not being a control freak wanting your product not to be over used and everything like that. Now, I agree that Apple did kind of go a little bit out there just to stop you from selling it, but you got what you deserved for it. In a very shitty way though.

buyer contacted me via phone today. He's still going to get it. after all he already payed... F#*& you apple.

Ignorance at his best

yupp

Apple is not doing anything wrong!!!

Like I said, what they did was a little extreme, but that's Ebays part too right there. Apple is doing what they need to do to protect their product! You're the one expecting to sell a netbook with an illegal os on a public trading site that has many rules and laws to follow, with no problem. It's your own fault this happened, you have no right to be angry at Apple, be angry at yourself.

Oh - now emotions are becomming part of legality and obedience.

Just leave it here, enough said on all that matters on this case...

It's not really concerned with emotions, it's just that he has no argument to make against it. It's like an opium dealer wonder why he's bubbas buddy in jail.

Just to put the story short:

-----> ------> -------> ----> ----> ---->




No more to say, except:




once a year...

I haven't seen your ad but I think you should check ebays restrictions as well, if you sell OS X on a non apple machine it will be violating one if mentioned in your ad;
http://pages.ebay.com/help/policies/replica-counterfeit.html
http://pages.ebay.com/help/policies/oem.html
http://pages.ebay.com/help/policies/authen...isclaimers.html

but ebay should have offered you a contact mail, phone or person for the one requesting the removal (apple's legal department) which you should contact if you disagree.

It seems obvious why they refused to give you Apple's legal department contact information, the last thing Ebay wants is to have troubles with someone like Apple just because one of Ebay users refuses to understand and/or accept Ebay policies.

interesting point, superhai/ XLR... interestingly though:

...again im not upset for my add being taken down other than the fact that it was taken down after sale... and blocked me from the buyer (who did call me on the phone to confirm he wanted it... it's shipped btw)


since i had in fact broken an ebay rule or two...
why didn't ebay just terminate it? why did apple have to get involved? why did apple have to get a legal order? and why did ebay tell me that apple cited breaking the EULA?

and why the F#&% didn't apple just call me? they have access to my information, im a blatant hackintosh user... every error report i send i make it clear that it's coming from a home-built mac. (as if they couldn't figure that out when they see the LSCPI/harware report)
i have a Dot.Mac or excuse me "Mobile Me" account as well... i've registered several real and home-built macs under the same address as well. heck they have my phone number! they should have called me warning me... respectfully and non-threateningly... and ebay should have closed the sale citing that installed software was not included.

so #1 im not that bright... #2 apple is more controlling than we all thought #3 apple is afraid to call people directly #4 ebay is afraid of mice, let alone apple.

#5 if you can't build a hackintosh, you don't deserve to own one... at least the buyer of the laptop knows what he's doing, i did talk to him.

#6 that said (in #5) hackintoshes are better not sold.

#7 neither I nor Psystar should be allowed to sell it preinstalled... but could possibly sell them as supporting the OS.

Apple isn't one person or one brain. It's a big, big company with lots of departments. It's driven by directives and
people that decide what to do according to those. These (legal) people get paid for doing what they supposed to do, not for educating people to do better.

You got into the mill of a running machinery. Like I said all very unfortunate...

I don't understand how you think Apple should have contacted you.

According to the EULA and eBays rules, you had an offending ad.
Apple noticed it and contacted eBay and eBay agreed and removed the ad.

(Obviously this seems like the fastest method to have an offending ad removed than trying to contact and communicate directly with sellers.
Not saying you, but I'm sure many sellers would ignore correspondence and/or still sell it. Obviously the goal for Apple is to remove the ad, NOT to have to go after the seller.)

If anything, you beef sounds like it should be with eBay and how they handled the removal.
(Although your ultimate goal sounds like it wasn't to abide by the rules and refund the money anyways but to try to complete the sale.)

are you sure you aint getting scammed from that laptop buyer. any one with a ebay account can report an item say crap about copyrights. and ebay will pull that item in like 30mins. and in some case they will ban your ass.

scammers are hot on ebay.
and this sounds fishy since the buyer has not contacted you. after he sent money through paypal. he should have your email in his paypal account.
unless he is some rich guy who don't give a toss.
but then again why would a rich buy a hack mac.
sounds like a scam to me mate. be careful with ebay and paypal.

Dude, the guy already payed him, and he already shipped the laptop. It's not a scam.

ohh i see

+1

Well everybody should have learned something from this lesson: NEVER SCREW WITH APPLE FOR PROFIT, ONLY FUN XD

TL:DR version--OP broke the law and blames everyone but himself.

just so you know for future reference it says in the user agreement that it is illegal to sell anything with OSX on it unless it's an official labeled property of apple like a mac pro or something. it also says the only way you can sell your OS X install disc is if you remove it from you Apple Product and ship it with all of the original packaging including the 2 apple stickers. if you specified OS X on it they have the right to remove the listing under copyright violations, ad its there copyright they don't need you involved in anyway. It's not like apple is this new company that barely has their trademarks registered and you're over here saying it was your idea first. Apple owns a lot of things, they proved what you were selling may have only been bought because of their name, they actually could have sued you and claimed that Apple's name made you what you are on ebay, but they didn't so appreciate how easy you got off. They don't care if you hack all day, that's like free beta testing, but once profit is added they get pissy. Also if i watch 200 bootlegs online the only way I can go to jail or get sued is if one of the select companies press charges, that's why people do it because it requires them to press charges, if they come to my house and I have watched over 200 they aren't obligated to tell me which one of the 50 production companies decided to take action. If it gets bad and I take them to court I might find out but they don't have to be there or tell me anything. If you think it's a law please return with the penal codes and proof of documents. Did you know 80% of so called Laws have absolutely no documentation, welcome to America! if you don't like it then why are you putting up with it? sorry if I upset you I am just stating facts, and a Wiki source of laws isn't legit I want to see official signed documents or the official penal code book and number... peace

Why do you think you have a legal right to use ebay? Apple's legal forms were to EBAY not you, since its their site and their problem, you have no right to see them. If they were for you then they would have been given to you instead of Ebay. You got banned for violating Ebays rules, nothing else, nothing involving the law or lawyers applies to your situation and Apple has no reason to contact you when all they want is for Ebay to block the sale of hackintoshes.

While most laws might be written in complete legalese and be somewhat vague if they're constantly referencing other laws they append or alter, but their all on the books...

(except for maybe secret laws Bush made up that you can't know about because of "national security")

Shoulda' just Craigslisted the thing. I imagine that would be harder for Apple to mess with.

Haha, you were selling a laptop with a pirated copy of Mac OS X on it, installed against the EULA, and you want to know why you got suspended? LOL!

+1 That is exactly what I did recently. I stated which OS's I had successfully run on it and I offered the buyer the choice of what OS they wanted me to install on it.

you're just as bad as the people that "preload" over $10,000 in software on their computers and modchip game systems and say it includes over 1000 games. it's copyright infringement and also puts you at an unfair advantage to honest sellers. and you, mister, are not an honest seller to include osx for whatever reason you may have. quit bitching about your suspended account(s) and get with the [honesty] system.

This in itself goes against the right of first sale. You are entitled to sell the genuine apple DVD in whatever form you like (out of the packaging if you want.) AS LONG as you do not have the software installed elsewhere.

someone want to tell me how OS X on PCs is illegal again? last time I checked Apple did not make the laws.

oh wait... you guys are in the US right? DMCA it is then...

Honestly, the only really wrong thing you actually did was that you put too much "sensitive" information in your ebay ad. If you knew that putting osx86 on a PC, already voids EULAs and what not, then you should kept quiet about that information. Or at least been very "secretive" about it.

Like mention something like, "Here is a great acer laptop, that runs any OS you want, whether it's windows, linux, osx86, etc. blah blah blah..." and just add your email address somewhere, where the buyer could have contacted you to find out that osx86 is pre-installed.

Basically, if a person can get away with selling a "photo" of a $300 product, you hear this often with video game consoles and such, then I think you should be able to find a way to sell a product that violates the Apple EULA.

Don't blame apple or ebay, you only have your self to blame because you weren't more careful selling this product. But hey, at least it worked out for you in the end.